From the Classroom to the Church: The Importance of Teaching in Ministry with Dr. Francis

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Jesse: Coming up on this episode of
the Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise podcast.

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dr choctaw: Have churches
significantly changed in 2024

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as say back when you first
started your church in general?

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Jesse: I think we were

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dr francis: good.

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Jesse: Welcome to the Healthy,
Wealthy, and Wise podcast with Dr.

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William T.

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Choctaw, M.

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D.

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J.

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D.

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where the doctor helps you unlock
your full potential by equipping you

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with the tools and knowledge in the
areas of health, wealth, and wisdom.

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Anchored in his experience as a
business executive, a physician

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surveyor for the Joint Commission,
and A former mayor, and over 50 years

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of experience as a general surgeon.

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You've got questions, he's got answers.

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So let's get started.

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Here's Dr.

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William T.

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Choctaw, MD, JD.

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dr francis: Father, we just thank you
for this time that we can come together.

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We know that all time is in your hand,
yet we want to, uh, use the time that

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you give us on a manner, on a way that,
uh, uh, glorify you, uh, that recognizes

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the fact that it is you who have blessed
us, and as we go forward, may we, uh,

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reflect on the things that will be
helpful to one another as well as to

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any audience that might come across it.

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We thank you and we praise
you, in Jesus name, amen.

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dr choctaw: Well, good morning, everybody.

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We're very, very happy to have you join
us today with another edition of the

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Health and Wealth in Minds podcast.

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We are very fortunate today to have our
guest, a very special guest, someone we've

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known for years, uh, um, uh, Reverend Dr.

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Joseph Francis, Sr.

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We'll be joining us and sharing
his words of wisdom with us.

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Um, good morning, Dr.

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dr francis: Francis.

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Good morning to you and uh,
Brother Hammond, how are you all?

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dr choctaw: We're doing well.

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Good morning, Jesse.

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Good morning!

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Okay.

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So, uh, Roman Francis, um, One
of the things that we like to do

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is just, just open up and just
have you tell us about yourself.

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So tell us about Reverend Dr.

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Josel Francis.

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What would you like for people to know?

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Well, it's a long

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dr francis: story, but

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dr choctaw: that's okay.

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We've got time.

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dr francis: I was born in
Rio, back in Florida, a little

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town outside of Tallahassee.

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North Florida and, uh, I stayed back
there until I was about 2020, uh, one,

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uh, I went to Florida a and MA couple
years after I finished high school

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there in , and, uh, joined the Navy.

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Once I joined the Navy, Navy
eventually, uh, trained in Orlando,

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but ended up in San Diego as a station.

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That's where I was stationed at.

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Okay.

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So, uh, I've been out here practically
ever since I was about 22, 23 years old.

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I did go back for about a year or so,
but, uh, since then, and so I went to

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school out here in terms of college
to My major work was done at San

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Diego State and, uh, Biola University.

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Yes.

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And, uh, that's where I did my
theological, biblical work at.

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And, after I got out of school,
uh, college there, and grad

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school, I did, uh, plan a church.

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And, uh, ran that church as a
senior there for about 10 years.

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dr choctaw: Okay.

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dr francis: Then I turned it over
to my associate, they since have,

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uh, discontinued, but, uh, I really
thought and felt that the church, I was

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running, not only that church, but the
church in general, really experiencing

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more problems than what I see in the
Bible, in terms of leadership, in

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terms of people getting along and
working together and all of this.

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So I guess to some degree, I did
become somewhat disillusioned.

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Uh, with the reality of what
life is as opposed to the theory.

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That's true, that's true.

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I've really kind of, uh,
slapped, you know, from a young

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fellow, maybe 30 years old.

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That was young at that time.

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So what did you learn from this?

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What did you learn from that experience?

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I learned that

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we have to go ahead and do
what God called us to do.

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Okay.

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Individually and as corporately,
but starting individually, without

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respect to what other people are doing.

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Okay.

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In other words, I can't, I can teach
someone or tell someone, but I cannot be

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responsible for what someone else does,
nor can they be responsible for what I do.

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I can't say, well, I would have,
I should have, I could have, but I

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can't say, well, These people, or that
person, you know, I'm responsible for

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my actions, and someone said that if
you want to start growing, and I might

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have said this before in a message, but
the basis of growing is to stop making

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excuses and to stop being responsible.

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Okay.

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So, being responsible for myself.

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and not putting that on someone else.

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That's one of the things I learned, and
I think it's a great lesson to learn.

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dr choctaw: Is there a difference
if you're responsible for

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yourself but you're a leader?

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In other words, does the
leader have different

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responsibilities than a follower?

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Let's say the church, and let's say
you're the leader of the church.

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Is that a unique responsibility, or
is that just like everybody else?

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dr francis: It is a unique responsibility
in the sense that we are to teach

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and to train and to challenge and to
encourage and to attempt to be some,

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an example of doing what we teach.

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It's not enough simply to teach it
or preach it, it's, it's, it's a

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responsibility to Attempt to live out
what you teach and what you preach.

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And so obviously what happens oftentimes
is we can teach, we can preach, and that

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is part of the responsibility to teach
others what you've been taught yourself.

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And that's one of the things, the
reason we learn and study is that

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we'll be able to, the Bible says,
that we'll be able to teach others.

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And so, that's part of the responsibility,
but beyond that, we ought to

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live it out as well as teach it.

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It's not enough just to
teach it or preach it.

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And that's where it really gets, where
the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

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We have to actually live it out.

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Exactly, exactly.

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It's easy to preach it, but living it,
that's where the challenge comes in.

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dr choctaw: Somebody once said that
given information is one thing,

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but education is people receiving
information that changes behavior.

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You know, you can teach me or tell me, but
if I don't change, or my behavior doesn't

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change, have I really learned anything?

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You know, and that gets

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dr francis: Yes, I was disagreeing.

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I said, apparently we haven't, if
we, if we don't change, essentially,

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you have not been educated.

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I mean, theoretically, you have,
but practically, you have not.

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Does that make sense?

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dr choctaw: No, that makes sense.

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Have churches significantly
changed in 2024, as say, back when

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you first started your research?

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dr francis: I think we
were practically the same.

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I think that probably people get
a little bit more pushback on

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leadership than they used to.

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At least they used to
pretend like they were.

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Respecting leadership.

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But I think leadership gets more pushback.

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We respect, kind of like Rod Rodney.

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Danger for you.

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Say, I get no respect, no respect,
I that I think that people at least

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gave a little bit more respect in many
cases to leadership than they do now.

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They, I think it's more honor.

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Kind of level, you know, as
opposed to the pedestal, you

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know, almost on the same level.

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Is that good or bad?

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I guess it has

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some good points to it, but there's a
point where if you are with someone and

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they are in a leadership position, I
think we should give them that respect.

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I think that's the proper to do.

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It doesn't mean you can't have a platform
whereby we can talk and deal with

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issues and problems and concerns, but
there's a way to go about doing things

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and that's what I'm talking about.

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It's not that you shouldn't be challenged
or encouraged or corrected, but how

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you go about it in a respectable
manner is what I'm suggesting.

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dr choctaw: I, I certainly
do agree with that.

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I, I, um, um, over my lifetime and I'm,
you know, 70 plus, uh, I've seen churches

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in the churches, uh, compared to, um, when
I was going to church as a little boy in

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Nashville, Tennessee, as compared to now.

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Um, I've seen changes in terms
of the way people dress in church

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and the way people act in church.

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A lot of different changes.

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But I ask myself, is this a
good change or a bad change?

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You know, that I'm not sure that
everybody should think and believe

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what I think and believe behavior wise.

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dr francis: Yeah.

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And so, so eventually we have to, in order
to settle the issue, I think we have to

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come to a place where we have a level.

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of Q in terms of deciding what
we do and don't do, my opinion,

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your opinion, Jess's opinion.

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It's likely that we will differ.

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on some issues.

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So how do we settle it?

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Who's right, who's wrong?

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Or is anyone right?

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Or are we all wrong?

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Well, I call

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dr choctaw: that common ground.

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You find common ground.

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And the common ground is always there

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dr francis: if you work
hard enough to find

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dr choctaw: it.

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dr francis: And one of the best places
I know to find it is called the Bible.

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Oh yeah.

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That is, that is, it all comes
around to, uh, back to that.

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Yeah, if we're willing to listen to and
really want to find out what, what the

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real issue is and what we're supposed
to do, it is not like it's unknown.

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We sometimes act as if though,
you know, I wish I had.

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It's there.

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That's why he gave us the word.

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What do we need to know ultimately
either directly or principally speaking?

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It's there, in terms of
our actions and so forth.

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You know, we're studying Leviticus
now and, you know, And, and in the,

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in the, uh, Bible study at church,
and it just has a bunch of laws there.

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Sometimes you, when you end up on
something like that, it's kind of

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like, this is quite mundane, you know.

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But like I was telling you, once
you start facing it with the right

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attitude, it can be helpful to you.

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Because even there, it shows us and
tells us a lot about what God expects.

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And if we really want
to know , it's there.

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And when you go to Romans, I mean,
he, he, Paul and Lodge is on the law

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and, and liberty and all of that.

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But, uh, the point is, I guess is
that if we really want to know how to

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get along is not like it's a mystery.

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As we sometime approach it and pretend
we, it's there, we know how to act.

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It is just a matter of
whether or not we want to.

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Uh, do his will, our will, and naturally
we want to do our own will, but are we

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willing to submit to his will, not mine.

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dr choctaw: So what would be the goal?

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What is the main goal of that
ministry, um, short term and long term?

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What is it you're trying
to accomplish with it?

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The goal

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dr francis: would be to, uh, uh,
explain and expound upon the word,

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um, on a level where all of God's
people, regardless of age and,

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uh, development can hear the word.

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And understand it and learn it.

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In other words, be discipled,
to call it discipleship.

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That's the bottom line, is discipleship.

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Getting people taught and trained in
the word, and encouraged and challenged

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and supported them in living it out.

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Okay.

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That's really it.

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Discipleship.

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That's what it's about.

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Being taught in the word
and helped to live it.

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Because again, being taught in it, that's
important, but that's not where it ends.

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It ends where the rubber meets
the road, again, living that out.

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As they say in today's,
uh, lingo, that part.

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Jesse: Okay.

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dr francis: Okay.

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Okay.

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dr choctaw: So in general, as you,
um, as you train different, as

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you train other people to, uh, do
you train others to teach also?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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And, and so how do you know whether
that teaching has reached the

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goal that you wanted to teach?

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I'm just trying to get an idea about
how you, how you measure that, how you,

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how you know whether you need to improve
or not improve, um, what, what types

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of guidelines that you're following?

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dr francis: You can kind of watch
and see whether people follow what

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you said and what you lay out there.

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But the bottom line is I think in
terms of how you really determine

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in the long run and even in the
short run is to see change lives.

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Okay.

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Change lives.

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Okay.

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If the lives are not being changed,
well, the goal is not being met.

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Okay.

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And that's why it's important not only to,
uh, teach it, you know, but to live it.

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Because many times, students
will emulate their teacher.

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Absolutely.

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It becomes a, you know, it sets
the bar and the students will

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attempt to live up to that.

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Absolutely.

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So that's, that's really the
key is seeing changed lives.

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That's, that's it, that's
it, that's, that's the test.

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dr choctaw: And that
takes a really long time.

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Yeah, it might take a while.

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dr francis: Yeah.

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dr choctaw: I tell you, growing up in
the deep south, and if you didn't have

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parents, and I was a foster child,
and Jesse can identify with that.

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So you didn't have the regular
mom and dad in the house.

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And I learned much of what
I learned from teachers.

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Teachers in school, teachers in Sunday
school, teachers in regular school.

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And I think that there's probably Not a
greater, uh, profession than to teach.

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It's a privilege and honor to teach.

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Uh, because to your point, you can
change someone's life with that.

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I can remember my favorite teachers,
even to this day, like in high school

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and, and, and, uh, junior high school.

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Uh, so I, I think a lot of times
teachers don't really get the, in my

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00:16:34,810 --> 00:16:39,319
judgment, don't get the respect that
they should get, you know, uh, but I

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think that they have a extraordinarily,
extraordinary impact on the lives of, of

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dr francis: others.

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Definitely.

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We can all cite some of
the teachers that are.

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Impressed us and caused us
to, uh, gravitate toward a

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more, uh, preferred lifestyle.

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Yes, sir.

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And so we can look back on
some of those now and so can I.

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I'm sure we all can.

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00:17:07,095 --> 00:17:10,385
Well, yeah, as a matter of fact,
my father was actually a teacher.

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00:17:10,605 --> 00:17:10,824
Oh, yeah.

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And, uh, I had that benefit growing up.

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Uh, well, a Bible teacher, you know,
Director of Training for Services and,

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00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:22,280
uh, you know, Chairman of the Deacon Board
and all of that, and to your, both of your

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00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:29,660
points there, um, you know, he is someone
that I often try to emulate, um, he has

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big shoes to fill, um, but, uh, I agree.

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Yeah.

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There's a quote that, uh, is by
Craig Bloomberg, and it talks about

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00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:48,189
how the church is supposed Act and
I model of course is the Lord and

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sometimes people are not as easy to
get along with, you know, even in the

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00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:57,489
church, but he says there, he says
church should be a place where people

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00:17:57,500 --> 00:18:00,239
gather and get along with each other.

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who have no merely human
reason for doing so.

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00:18:06,270 --> 00:18:07,310
Now that's interesting.

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00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:10,429
How does that happen in reality, Doc?

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00:18:12,229 --> 00:18:16,479
Again, it happens, sometimes it
doesn't, but when it does happen, it

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happens by us putting the Lord first.

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00:18:20,719 --> 00:18:23,940
There's no way I can deal with
this guy here, this person.

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00:18:24,410 --> 00:18:28,410
But we, we want to emulate Christ.

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00:18:29,004 --> 00:18:33,075
And forgive people, it happens through
forgiveness, it happens through

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00:18:33,315 --> 00:18:37,385
recognizing that some people just haven't
gotten there yet, they're not getting

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00:18:37,385 --> 00:18:41,364
there, and some won't ever get there, and
recognizing that some people may be there,

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00:18:41,365 --> 00:18:49,315
they're not even saved yet, and so there's
all kinds of issues, underlying issues,

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00:18:49,455 --> 00:18:55,824
but the idea is that we are, the church
is supposed to be a place where people at

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00:18:55,844 --> 00:18:59,520
least are learning To have a relationship.

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00:19:00,284 --> 00:19:03,975
That expresses the fact that
they have met the living Christ.

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dr choctaw: That's the term.

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00:19:06,184 --> 00:19:06,934
Lord help me.

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00:19:06,954 --> 00:19:11,475
I think that the reality is that we're
all on different parts of that journey.

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00:19:11,614 --> 00:19:12,024
Yes.

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00:19:12,064 --> 00:19:17,164
Um, and I think sometimes, um, my
impression has been, and like yourself,

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00:19:17,245 --> 00:19:18,584
I've been in church all of my life.

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00:19:18,584 --> 00:19:20,134
I'm 76 years old now.

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00:19:20,665 --> 00:19:27,054
Um, and, uh, my, um, um, father
was a minister, my uncle was a

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00:19:27,054 --> 00:19:31,465
minister, my stepfather was a
minister, so I've, I've, I've been

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00:19:31,475 --> 00:19:33,514
around preachers for a long time.

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00:19:33,984 --> 00:19:38,894
Um, but, but, but, if there's anything
that I've learned is that we are

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00:19:38,915 --> 00:19:40,884
on different parts of that journey.

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00:19:41,104 --> 00:19:45,745
Uh, different lengths of that journey,
and we have to be respectful of them.

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00:19:45,764 --> 00:19:50,114
What I've seen sometimes is the ones
who are farther along that journey,

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00:19:50,114 --> 00:19:55,185
more mature, will sometimes be less
patient with those who are still learning

327
00:19:55,185 --> 00:19:59,324
the lessons that we all learned maybe
20 years ago, as compared to being

328
00:19:59,334 --> 00:20:01,364
more patient with those individuals.

329
00:20:01,834 --> 00:20:04,674
Have you seen that, or
what's been your experience?

330
00:20:06,325 --> 00:20:06,985
dr francis: That's interesting.

331
00:20:06,985 --> 00:20:11,275
As a matter of fact, my father was the
chairman of a deacon board too, so I guess

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00:20:11,315 --> 00:20:13,865
we are, and one of his brothers was past.

333
00:20:14,175 --> 00:20:19,405
So, uh, we all kind of, we're in a
similar background in that respect.

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00:20:20,014 --> 00:20:23,685
But you know, that's interesting
that you would say that, because a

335
00:20:23,685 --> 00:20:33,895
person who has more, uh, exposure, and
hopefully has gone further, um, But

336
00:20:36,155 --> 00:20:42,995
fails to honor those
who are less developed.

337
00:20:43,325 --> 00:20:46,355
Yes, may not be as developed as he sl.

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00:20:46,535 --> 00:20:48,995
She thinks that he sl she is a special.

339
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:54,215
That respect in that may be in some
areas, but in that area he even, he

340
00:20:54,215 --> 00:20:57,695
or she needs to point it up a bit.

341
00:20:58,530 --> 00:20:59,260
You know what I'm saying?

342
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,780
So, if you were developed enough,
you'd say, Well, I understand, I see,

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00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:09,129
and I'm going to help this person
in this area, as opposed to kind

344
00:21:09,129 --> 00:21:10,959
of, uh, kicking them to the curb.

345
00:21:11,330 --> 00:21:14,099
Right, and being critical
and dismissing them.

346
00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:14,630
Yes.

347
00:21:15,399 --> 00:21:18,629
Doctor, do you think that they
forgot where they came from?

348
00:21:18,630 --> 00:21:21,870
And what, where God has brought them from?

349
00:21:23,439 --> 00:21:28,310
Yeah, sometimes we forget, you know,
cause, uh, when you look back, it's You

350
00:21:28,350 --> 00:21:32,790
know, some of the things we're critical
of is something that we ourselves,

351
00:21:33,230 --> 00:21:38,560
at least at one time, if we're not
still involved, to some level we have

352
00:21:38,590 --> 00:21:43,329
been, or if not that, it was something
else, just as egregious, or more so.

353
00:21:45,405 --> 00:21:51,475
So we all, in other words, we all have
some issues, or have had and will have,

354
00:21:51,885 --> 00:21:58,685
and judge others because we ourselves
have, uh, issues, and so we have to love

355
00:21:58,685 --> 00:22:02,415
one another, and that's what that one,
you know, I made that quote from Craig

356
00:22:02,484 --> 00:22:08,574
Bloomberg there is because it should be,
the church should be a place where people

357
00:22:08,584 --> 00:22:14,145
gather and get along with each other,
it should be, and underline should be.

358
00:22:15,125 --> 00:22:16,985
On that note, we will end

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00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:19,970
.
dr choctaw: Okay.

360
00:22:20,045 --> 00:22:21,127
Thank you so much, so much.

361
00:22:21,185 --> 00:22:25,775
Um, uh, Reverend Francis, um, God
bless you and may you continue to

362
00:22:25,775 --> 00:22:31,085
do your extraordinary work, uh,
in leading, um, as you have been.

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00:22:31,565 --> 00:22:36,545
And, um, uh, as we always like
to say, we like to, uh, tell all

364
00:22:36,550 --> 00:22:39,785
our listeners to be the change
they expect to see in the world.

365
00:22:40,265 --> 00:22:41,945
Uh, thank you and have a great day.

366
00:22:42,255 --> 00:22:43,735
Thank you all for having me.

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00:22:43,805 --> 00:22:44,365
God bless you.

368
00:22:44,835 --> 00:22:45,105
All right.

369
00:22:45,105 --> 00:22:45,635
God bless you too.

370
00:22:46,005 --> 00:22:46,435
Take care.

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00:22:47,225 --> 00:22:49,505
Jesse: Thank you for listening
to this episode of the Healthy,

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00:22:49,505 --> 00:22:51,875
Wealthy, and Wise podcast with Dr.

373
00:22:51,885 --> 00:22:52,515
William T.

374
00:22:52,545 --> 00:22:54,675
Choctaw, MD, JD.

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00:22:55,115 --> 00:22:58,644
Be sure to check out other great
episodes covering areas of health,

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00:22:58,884 --> 00:23:01,035
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377
00:23:03,215 --> 00:23:03,695
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00:23:03,985 --> 00:23:07,605
And while you're there, be sure to
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379
00:23:07,605 --> 00:23:09,745
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380
00:23:10,145 --> 00:23:11,814
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381
00:23:12,025 --> 00:23:14,725
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382
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That's at THWWP.

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00:23:18,455 --> 00:23:19,035
com.

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00:23:19,425 --> 00:23:23,204
You've been listening to the Healthy,
Wealthy, and Wise podcast with Dr.

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00:23:23,215 --> 00:23:23,805
William T.

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00:23:23,815 --> 00:23:26,135
Choctaw, MD, JD.