Police Encounters: Communication and De-escalation Strategies

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Uh, this is Dr.

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William T.

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Choctaw, and I will be your host today
to the Healthy, Wealth Wise podcast.

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Um, we always like to go over our beliefs.

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We believe life is about being
of service to other people.

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We believe knowledge is power.

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We believe leaders can change the world.

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And so, in essence, what we want
to do for you, our audience, is

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to empower you With knowledge to
make the world a better place.

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So welcome.

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Bernie.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Hi.

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Hello there.

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How's it going?

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I want to talk to you today about what are
your rights when dealing with the police?

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And what are their rights
when dealing with you?

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Do I have the right to
refuse to answer questions?

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Obviously you can, but we
mentioned license registration.

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I'm going to start going
a little bit faster.

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Okay.

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Consent to allow them to search my car.

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Obviously the answer is generally no.

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You can if you want.

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There's nothing to say.

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You don't have to consent.

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You generally know.

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Yeah.

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Can the police keep me there
for a prolonged period of time?

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They stop you for a traffic violation,
and they want to keep you there, and

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they tell you, Oh, well, you know what?

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We have to bring the dogs.

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We're bringing a canine unit, and
they'll be here in about 20 minutes.

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But while we're waiting, we'll
just ask you a few questions.

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We can talk while we're waiting.

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Report it said.

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No, no, no.

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You cannot.

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You have a prolonged, uh, detention
while you're just citing a person.

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It has to be reasonable.

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You cite the person, you let
them go and be done with it.

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You can't use that as a ruse to,
uh, keep them there while you

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conduct other investigations to
get them to admit to anything.

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Okay, sure.

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Yes, quickly.

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Can they search my vehicle?

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Yes, they can search it, pursue it
to a warrant if they have a warrant

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to search and they can search it.

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If you give them consent,
they can search your vehicle.

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If there's probable cause, uh,
evidence of criminal activity

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that's inside the vehicle.

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If there's anything in plain
view that we discussed earlier.

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They can search it as we mentioned
earlier, pursue it to an arrest,

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because when they arrest you, if the
vehicle's there and they impound the

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vehicle, then when it gets to the
station, they do an inventory search and

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impound search and whatever they find,
boom, is admissible in the evidence.

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Got it.

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Now, they can search you if they
have some reasonable suspicion that

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there are weapons in the vehicle.

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They can search you for work, search the
vehicle if there's officer safety issues.

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Uh, As we mentioned earlier, they
can search the glove compartment

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for a license and registration.

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Uh, now, and as we said earlier, illegally
seized evidence may be thrown out.

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Okay?

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Okay.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: That's pretty
much it with regard to vehicles.

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We've discussed home,
vehicles, and in public place.

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Now, the one last area we're going to
talk about Is police use the force?

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Dr William T. Choctaw:
Will police use the force?

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Yes.

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When can they use force on a person?

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Okay,

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Dr William T. Choctaw: got it.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: The police can
use When can they use deadly force?

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Police can only use deadly force.

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When it is necessary in defense of
human life, where there is an imminent

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threat of death or serious bodily
injury to the officer or to others.

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And they must stop using deadly force.

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Once the danger has stopped.

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Okay.

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If somebody's coming at you with
a gun or that teenager we talked

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about had a gun turned out to be
a replica, but I didn't know that.

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And the standard is whether a
reasonable officer would in similar

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circumstances believe that he
was justified in using force.

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It's the reasonable person standard.

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So if the kid is coming at you with
a gun and you don't, it looks like

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a real gun, it turns out to be a
fake gun and he points it at you.

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Now, then theoretically, the officer
could theoretically shoot him.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Right now,

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Bernie Brown, Esq: on the other hand,
in this particular video, when they

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showed it on the news, on the one you
were talking about, the kid was saying

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something like, uh, you could hear him
saying something like, it's not real.

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I'm going to, you know,
it's not real officer.

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So yeah, does it get to the
point where they, you're not

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justified in using deadly force?

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The question too becomes
what is deadly force?

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Well, gun is deadly force.

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A knife is deadly force.

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Can a stick be deadly force?

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It becomes an interesting question.

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In a particular situation where when I was
a young man and I saw the police officer

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shoot that, the guy, what happened was
he was, he was stealing a car in South.

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And so what happened was
he was drove his vehicle.

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They said at an officer.

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In which event, his car became a deadly
weapon, in which event they had, they

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contend we had the right to use deadly
force to defend ourselves, because he

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was driving his car at us, and if he had
hit us, he was using his car as a deadly

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Dr William T. Choctaw: weapon.

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What about the situations, um,
at least if I'm familiar, if I'm

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correct, where the person is running
away, they shoot him in the back.

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And say they were in fear of
their life, but but the person

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is running away from them.

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How is that?

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Acceptable there
are some jurisdictions where they take

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the position that a fleeing felon,
okay That they can apprehend a fleeing

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felon that they you can use deadly
force, uh against a free fleeing,

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uh However, that's generally not the
case that does not meet the standard

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of using uh, only that voice, which
is necessary under the circumstances.

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And so ordinarily, that's
what it's kind of embarrassing

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sometimes with the police officers.

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Cause a lot of times they're searching,
they're, they're chasing some guy

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and they can't shoot him legally.

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They cannot shoot him in the back.

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If they don't believe
he has a deadly weapon.

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Uh, And so then they chase him, chase
him and the officer is getting tired,

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but they can't shoot him in the back.

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If they do, Or shoot him
during the process if they

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don't believe he has a weapon.

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So they have to pursue him and they have
to use reasonable force to detain him.

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Reasonable force, which is just, you
control him so that they can handcuff him.

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And that does not include Deadly force.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Well,
you know, I guess I, I've been

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watching too much law and order.

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I, I need to, I need to talk to
professionals like you because

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they, it seems like on law and
order, you know, you'll have this

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sort of chubby person who's chasing
this guy and he can't catch him.

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There's no way he's gonna catch
him, so he just shoots him

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because he can't catch him.

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I mean, he, he , I mean, guys go civil,

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Bernie Brown, Esq: civil rights
lawyers, jump all over those

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Dr William T. Choctaw: always that, right.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: If he's one.

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There are certain jurisdictions,
states, because these laws can

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vary on some of these laws.

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Some of them are nationwide,
but others are state to state.

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And there, there are certain states
where a fleeing felon, if he's, if he's

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wanted for a deadly type of offense, you
know, a serious and dangerous offense,

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they would allow the deadly force.

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But, uh, Ordinarily, that's not
the case, and certainly you're

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subjected to a suit if you start
shooting somebody in the back.

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Lawyers love that.

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They'll be suing, suing, suing.

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So, uh, we talked about fleeing.

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The interesting point is like we
mentioned earlier, you mentioned

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a fleeing suspect who's running
away and he throws something.

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Um, uh.

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Yeah, Throw something he he
discards the drugs the gun or

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whatever Well, he he loses all of
his rights when she throws it away

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Okay,

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Bernie Brown, Esq: it's no longer
in his basically in his control and

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discarded evidence is admissible
in a state in a court of law.

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Okay, he basically waves his
right to challenge the search once

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he throws the contraband away.

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And we actually saw cases I could never
believe this, but I actually saw these

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cases where the police report says.

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Well, we were standing right there.

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I detained him and he pulled a
drug packet out of his pocket

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and threw it on the ground.

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And I'm thinking, who would
be stupid enough to do that?

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But then they show you
the video and there it is.

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The guy reaches in his pocket
and tries to toss it to the side.

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Uh, uh.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: So how many years
were you in the prosecutor's office?

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I mean, I would say

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Bernie Brown, Esq: 29 years,

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Dr William T. Choctaw: 29
years, almost 30 years.

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I bet you saw everything.

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We

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Bernie Brown, Esq: saw a lot of stuff.

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We, you know, it's intriguing stuff.

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A lot of the things you see on television,
they really do happen in the courts.

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I mean, people, defendants going
crazy and trying to attack the judges.

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The only thing that doesn't really happen.

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Is that Perry Mason

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Dr William T. Choctaw: stuff?

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Don't the lawyer,
all the lawyer stuff happens.

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It's just the defendant all of a sudden
gets up and says, okay, I did it.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Right.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Every
episode of Perry Mason.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: That's right.

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By the end of the hour.

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Right.

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That doesn't happen.

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Interesting.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: We, I don't
know how we're doing on time.

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Uh, we actually had a case too,
where I mentioned earlier resisting

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delaying or obstructing an officer.

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And so we would see cases where, you
know, I'm your buddy, so I see the

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police chasing you and I want to help

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Dr William T. Choctaw: you.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: So what happens is
the police are chasing the guy and the

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guy, uh, his buddy runs up and bumps the
police officer down so that he, so that

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his friend can get away from the police.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Right.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Well,
guess what happened?

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He gets arrested for bumping into people.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Of
course, he's interfering with the

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Bernie Brown, Esq: So, yeah, uh,
the question, now you didn't ask

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this question, but here it comes.

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Okay.

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Can you use profanity?

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Oh, okay.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: When you're
having an encounter with the police,

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can you give them the the finger?

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Well, you certainly common
sense says don't do it.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Okay, so it
violates your common sense standards.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Certainly don't do it.

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Now, is it legal?

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Can you give the police
officer the finger?

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Probably, you know, you say
free speech and free speech

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allow you to to use profanity.

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But you're gonna piss that officer off.

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And if you say something that Rises to
the level of what's called fighting words.

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Okay, gone too far.

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There's a way

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Dr William T. Choctaw: to do that.

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Yeah,

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Bernie Brown, Esq: there's certain
insults that are so inflammatory on

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Dr William T. Choctaw: this, uh,

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Bernie Brown, Esq: that, uh, they rise to
the level of what's called fighting words.

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In which event, uh, you've gone too far.

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So, uh, and then lastly,

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Dr William T. Choctaw: okay,

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Bernie Brown, Esq:
searches in security zone.

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There are certain areas where you do
not have virtually all these constant

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constitutionally protected rights.

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And one of those main
areas is, uh, an airport.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Oh,

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Bernie Brown, Esq: okay.

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They don't have to have probable
cause, reasonable suspicion.

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Oh, makes sense.

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They can just, you know, you got
to go through that metal detector.

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You got to be searched.

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And if you don't like it, it's gone.

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And you have, you know,
don't go to the airport.

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Dr William T. Choctaw:
Okay, no, that makes sense.

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And then because it's a safety thing.

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I mean, it affects everybody.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Yes,

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Dr William T. Choctaw: theoretically
in the airport or using the airport.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Yes.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Okay.

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Same

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Bernie Brown, Esq: thing is true for
courts in certain public buildings.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Makes sense.

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Makes sense.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: I think
that's all we have for today.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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You know,

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Dr William T. Choctaw: I, I should, I
should tell our podcast viewers what

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I think that's unique about Bernie.

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And one of the reasons why we have him to,
to educate us is that he is a prosecutor.

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He's not a defense attorney.

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He, you know, he, he's the guy who's
trying to make sure that if you commit

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a crime, Or if you, uh, are guilty of
a transgression, that you pay for that.

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And I, I think, I think a lot of times
we, we don't get, this is my opinion, we

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don't get the prosecutor's perspective.

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Uh, and I think what makes Bernie unique
in my, in my judge, one, he's a good

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friend of mine and, and somebody I trust.

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But but he can give me a
balanced evaluation of something.

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I don't have to worry about,
you know, one side or the other.

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He's going to tell me yes or no, up
or down, black or white type thing.

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And so it allows us to look at the
data, look at the facts, look at the

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environment or the circumstances in
a balanced way and say, you know,

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you just didn't use common sense.

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When you were, when you were, you
know, using all these, these, these

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words, whatever, whatever, whatever.

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And that just makes sense to me.

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And, and so my point is, I think,
Bernie, that, that's, that's what you

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uniquely in my judgment bring to this
podcast is your, your reflection and your

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experience in addition to who you are.

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You know, because I think
that's that's that's important.

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Go ahead.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: Thank you for
that I really appreciate that and

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that brings to thought just a side
issue a lot of people Sometimes it's

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like all those prosecutors are evil.

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They're so bad.

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Uh, it's terrible terrible terrible
there against the people, you know

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There's a train of thought of that
One of the things that I really loved

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about being a prosecutor is when we we
get the cases And we review the cases.

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And many times, many times we
look at the case and say, Oh, no,

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we're not prosecuting this case.

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We're throwing it out.

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It's not going to go forward.

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That's the discretion
you have as a prosecutor.

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If you look at the case and you
don't believe that, uh, that's

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that all the evidence is there.

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If you believe that there's a
reasonable doubt, as to whether

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the person committed the crime.

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If you believe that there's any
dishonesty or irregularities,

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you can throw the case out.

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So, uh, that discretion
was a wonderful thing.

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I really enjoyed that.

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And I really thank you for
allowing me to be on your podcast.

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You like, I go back, you're the
most brilliant person I know.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: Thank, thank you
for sharing your valuable time with us.

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And I can tell you, and I'm going
to stop watching law and order.

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I can tell you because the
prosecutor is never the hero, you

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know, the defense attorney is the
hero, you know, about Tom Cruise.

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And I think about all the other.

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You know, defense attorneys to kill a
marking bird and whatever, whatever,

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no one glorifies the prosecutor.

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Bernie Brown, Esq: That's a terrible job.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: So I'm absolutely
delighted for you, uh, being willing

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to, uh, share your knowledge with us,
to educate us, um, you know, because

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knowledge is power and the more we know,
and the more we educated, then we know

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what to do and what, what, what not to do.

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to keep us healthy
mentally and spiritually.

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Um, uh, so, so thank you
again for all of this.

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Um, and, uh, any, any
other final comments?

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Bernie Brown, Esq: No,
thank you very much.

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God bless you.

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Keep the, keep the, keep doing what
you're doing because it's a great thing.

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It's very helpful.

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Dr William T. Choctaw: sir.

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Thank you, sir.

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And what we always like to say to
ourselves and to our audience, be the

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change that you want to see in the world.

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Have a great day.

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Thank you.